Legislature(1993 - 1994)
09/17/1993 06:00 PM Senate STA
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SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
Fairbanks, AK
September 17, 1993
6:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chairman
Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chairman
Senator Jim Duncan (participated
via teleconference from Juneau)
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Johnny Ellis
OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Mike Miller
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 1
Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska
relating to the individual right to keep and bear arms.
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 34
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska
relating to the individual right to keep and bear arms.
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SJR 1 - No previous action to record.
SJR 34 - No previous action to record.
WITNESS REGISTER
Ms. Annette Kreitzer, Staff
Senator Loren Leman
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801
Ms. Portia Babcock
716 West 4th, Suite 540
Anchorage, AK 99501-2133
Ms. Bonnie Williams
Alaska Second Amendment Coalition
1335 Sunnyslope Road
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Mr. Gary Hammond
P. O. Box 71136
Fairbanks, AK 99707
Mr. Noel Napolilli, Chairman
Alaska Second Amendment Coalition
251 Napolilli Lane
Fairbanks, AK 99812
Mr. Kenneth Maahs
(no address)
Anchorage, AK
Mr. Les Zerbe
356 Louise Lane
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Mr. Bruce Campbell
Tanana Valley Sportmen's Association
P. O. Box 82245
Fairbanks, AK 99708
Miss Grace Maahs
(no address)
Anchorage, AK
Mr. Douglas Albright
1084 Lakeview Terrace
Fairbanks, AK 99701
Mr. Timothy Baumgartner
2058 Lakeview Terrace
Fairbanks, AK 99701
Mr. David Williams
1335 Sunnyslope Road
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Mr. Tom Gorham
4369 Bishops Circle
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Sue Wilken, Legislative Chair
Fairbanks School Board
2600 Riverview Drive
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Mr. Steve Colboch
823 Goldstream Road
Fairbanks, AK 99712
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-32, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate State Affairs Committee meeting to
order and advised the meeting was convened as a work session to
review the resolutions although public testimony will be taken.
ANNETTE KREITZER, Staff to Chairman Leman, presented the sponsor
statement on his behalf for SJR 4. She claimed that language
contained in the Alaska Constitution is ambiguous and there have
been numerous legislative attempts to clarify the right of an
individual to own a firearm, regardless of the use of the firearm.
Further, no Alaska Supreme Court interpretation has been done. In
concluding her comments, she stated ". . . the individual right of
Alaskans to own firearms for legal purposes should not be left open
for unreasonable government intrusion or potential erosion of that
right or to uncertain court interpretation."
CHAIRMAN LEMAN noted the differences between SJR 34 and SJR 1, also
under consideration. SJR 1 contains a provision that the amendment
would not change any municipal law related to firearms that is in
effect on the date of ratification of the amendment (November,
1994).
Number 10.33
PORTIA BABCOCK, Committee Aide to Chairman Leman, speaking on her
own behalf and the NRA, elaborated on the differences between the
resolutions. The main difference being Section 2, added in SJR 2
(referenced above), and that the resolution does not effect the
judicial standard of review.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN questioned MS. BABCOCK about existing borough or
municipal laws that may be troublesome to firearm owners.
MS. BABCOCK responded that the concealed weapons laws and
ordinances of municipalities were of most concern. With regard to
the Municipality of Anchorage, if the state enacted a concealed
weapons statute which would allow citizens to carry concealed
weapons, it would be directly in conflict with a municipal
ordinance currently in effect.
SENATOR LEMAN proceeded to call upon the following public
witnesses.
MS. BONNIE WILLIAMS, Board of Directors of the Alaska Second
Amendment Coalition (ASAC) testified on their behalf. She is also
a life member of the National Rifle Association (NRA). She
supports SJR 34, and not SJR 1. She thought a conservation
estimate would be twice as many firearms as people in Alaska; and
in Fairbanks, probably 98 percent of households have at least one
firearm. She commented on the high number of firearm-related
activities, including people living by way of subsistence which
includes all seasonal hunting, and recreational uses. She then
addressed the constitutional rights and privileges regarding
possession of firearms and the need to preserve that freedom. She
supports the passage of SJR 34 so the issue will be placed on the
ballot for vote.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked MS. WILLIAMS for clarification of the reason
they do not support SJR 1. She responded that if the state
constitution was amended, it should take precedence over local or
municipal laws and ordinances; and she would prefer that nothing be
left up to judicial review.
Number 20.21
MR. GARY HAMMOND testified in support of SJR 34 and in opposition
to SJR 1. The reason for his opposition to SJR 1 is based on
language in Section 29 concerning existing firearm laws, and
difficulty with some other language contained in the resolution.
He also questioned the provision of judges having the authority to
interpret the law's intent; he prefers explicit language.
MR. NOEL NAPOLILLI, Chairman, Alaska Second Amendment Coalition,
spoke in favor of SJR 34 and in opposition to SJR 1, for the same
reasons stated by previous speakers. He commented on the need for
the resolution such as the situation where the Attorney General's
Office issued a letter instructing the state troopers not to sign
Form Four for people who have applied for Class III weapons
ownership. The reason he felt this was done was because the
administration doesn't want the proliferation of those weapons
among people. He has letters which have been circulated that bear
this out. He commented that this example illustrated the
unreasonable infringement by the administration, or any
administration, which should not have the power to limit citizens'
access to weapons just because they don't like them. SJR 34 would
help protect the citizens from that kind of abuse of authority.
MR. KENNETH MAAHS, private investigator, was next to testify.
Drawing from his experience in this area, he believes attempts to
regulate gun ownership has not worked in reducing crimes. Rather,
when you cut the ownership of firearms to citizens, the criminals
have a larger chance to commit crimes. He felt that anytime you
hinder people's right to defend themselves, it benefits the
criminals. He felt the police are unable to adequately defend the
citizens against criminals with weapons. Of the two resolutions,
he favored SJR 34; and stressed the need for clear, concise
language for the amendment.
Number 31.23
MR. LES ZERBE commented on the need for a state's constitution to
be in agreement with the federal constitution which is clear to the
individual's right to protect himself. He said the intent of the
federal constitution, and framers of it, was for individuals to be
able to protect themselves from their own government should it
become necessary. So, provisions excluding certain kinds of
firearms should not be included in any language of the state
constitution as it was never intended for the military to become
more powerful than its citizenry. He thought that if the law
allowed everyone to carry a weapon, it would go a long way in
protecting us from the criminal element in society.
MR. ZERBE supports SJR 34 which would put specific language
guaranteeing firearm ownership in the state's constitution. The
language should include latitude to allow concealed weapons for
qualified individuals.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked his thought about limitations placed on
children carrying firearms in school and what he would consider a
"reasonable" restriction. MR. LES ZERBE responded that
"reasonable" would include specific age, such as 18; and could
contain other restrictions, such as having a clean record, and
having firearms training.
MR. BRUCE CAMPBELL testified on behalf of the Tanana Valley
Sportsmen's Association in support of efforts to clarify Section 19
of the Alaska Constitution. He referenced the opinion from the
Attorney General's Office that "Section 19 `in the modern judicial
view', only applied to the right of the state to form a national
guard, possibly militia". They disagree with that opinion and find
it extraneous and think it contributes to the reason why further
clarification is needed. They favor the old language that was once
SJR 1 (prior to new complicated language being added); and like SJR
34. It is his understanding, based on legal opinions from other
states, that an individual right, such as this, does not restrict
the police power of the state. As an instructor of firearms, he
commented on the female's different attitude about safety and
protection and increased interest in this area.
Number 40.20
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanked him for testifying and asked about the
Attorney General's opinion which he referenced. MR. CAMPBELL
indicated it was from former Attorney General Norm Gorsuch and that
he would provide a copy to the committee. CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated
the committee would make whatever materials they have available to
others upon request.
TAPE 93-32, SIDE B
Number .02
MISS GRACE MAAHS expressed her thoughts about the appropriate use
of firearms, including training, and retaining individual
possession for personal protection.
MR. DOUGLAS ALBRIGHT, twenty-two year resident of Fairbanks,
testified in support of SJR 34. He felt that SJR 1 contained
fairly vague and ambiguous language which was open to
interpretation. Regarding carrying firearms in schools, he stated
that that action was covered by the federal Omnibus Crime Control
Act, which made it illegal for anyone to carry firearms in school
except for official purposes or school-sponsored activities. He
expressed the need for a clear and simple state law in this area,
such as that contained in SJR 34.
MR. TIMOTHY BAUMGARTNER, twenty-three resident of Fairbanks, spoke
in favor of SJR 34. He travels in the wilderness and is concerned
about retaining the ability to protect himself. Weapons in his
home are used for several purposes: to hunt and provide food for
families; to use them for protection from those that might harm
them; and used as a means of teaching responsibility. He said that
"having firearms is a traditional freedom" provided for by the
Constitution.
Number 5.17
MR. DAVID WILLIAMS, also a resident of Fairbanks, addressed the
historical perspective, especially as it related to the development
of what was called (by British Jurist Sir William Blackstone) "the
common law" which later became a part of American law in the form
of the Bill of Rights. He paraphrased Sir Blackstone: "the right
of self defense is an inherent right of man, older than states, and
older than constitutions." So, the second amendment right is a
right we have which cannot be taken away. He questioned whether
the second amendment (U.S. Constitution) were inserted into the
Alaska Constitution, if it would solve our problems.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN responded that the Alaska Constitution is written
very similarly to the U.S. Constitution; therein lies the problem,
as we no longer think in terms of militia charged with protecting
citizens from government intrusion. Further, some state courts,
but not Alaska at present, are dealing with the distinction between
the individual and collective right.
MR. WILLIAMS referred to the language contained in Rhode Island law
which states "the right of the individual to keep and bear arms
shall not be infringed." He suggested that anyone interested call
the Attorney General of that state as the law has worked quite well
and they do not have problems controlling felons or anyone else
from weapons ownership. Further, he said the Director of Public
Safety mentioned that he was in favor of firearm ownership for
purposes of safety as it pertains to the concealed weapon law. He
concluded that if we do not get this through, we may loose other
rights, too.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN returned to the issue of using the language from the
second amendment of the U.S. Constitution for Alaska. He commented
that the language is the same; however, with various
interpretations, it has led to the need for further clarification.
MR. WILLIAMS felt that the use of the collective term "people"
(Bill of Rights) also referred to the individual, as interpreted by
the Supreme Court.
Number 13.30
MR. TOM GORHAM spoke in favor of SJR 34 and not SJR 1 because SJR
34 eliminates much of the ambiguity and simplifies the law. He
favors a concealed weapon plan and agrees it should be controlled
to the point that the person applying for the permit should meet
reasonable standards: meet age requirement, legally authorized to
own a weapon, and training with weapons. He would like to see some
restrictions removed, such as carrying a concealed weapon but not
in public places; or carrying it in a vehicle if it is loaded. He
felt if a person was deemed qualified to carry a weapon, it is
arbitrary to limit it to certain locations or under special
circumstances.
MR. GORHAM referred to the discussion of firearms for use by the
militia versus individuals. He felt it was intended to address the
individual need to carry firearms and that the language was dated
and no longer pertinent in today's terminology or use. In response
to Chairman Leman's question about firearms at schools, he
reiterated that these problems are dealt with by other laws.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN discussed the previous legislative attempts to
require training in firearms and water safety. MR. GORHAM said
that given the misleading media exposure, he would like to see more
attention given to providing training on the proper use of
firearms.
Number 25.38
MS. SUE WILKEN, legislative chair, Fairbanks School Board, spoke on
its behalf. She is also a thirty-eight year resident of Fairbanks
and avid hunter and fisherwoman. The Board's main concern focusses
on the political divisions of the state. The school board has
designated the school and school ground as being gun-free zones.
Parents are concerned with guns being carried across school grounds
during hunting season and parents picking up children with gun
racks in their cars. The schools are able to enforce laws
prohibiting guns in school through the federal law. However, they
are charged with the responsibility of assuring safety on school
grounds (not contained in federal law), so they support a gun-free
designation in state law pertaining to the school grounds.
MS. SUE WILKEN described the situation in Fairbanks in which an
armed parent was on school grounds in a truck, intending to
threaten/harm a student. The board feels that the message needs to
be clear that no weapons are permitted there; that school grounds,
as well as the buildings, are safe.
MR. STEVE COLBOCH, a firearms dealer, fully supports SJR 34. He is
opposed to restricting firearms, such as in the above situation, as
a parent may pick up a child from school with plans of going
hunting immediately. He felt the example was an isolated instance
and that authorities should have been called if the man was posing
a threat.
TAPE 93-33, SIDE A
Number .01
MR. COLBOCH continued his testimony regarding the need to address
this issue.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN talked about the committee's intent to get the
resolution out and voted on.
MR. NOEL NAPOLILLI returned to the table to comment on the issue of
weapons on school grounds. He felt that posting the school grounds
was meaningless in this example. The only people who will pay
attention to the restriction will be law-abiding citizens which
pose no threat. He thought there were enough restrictions
regarding the use of children using firearms.
MS. BONNIE WILLIAMS testified again on this issue. She commented
on laws prohibiting carrying firearms on planes, and that the
school board would not be prohibited from making a ruling about
firearms on school grounds.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanked all the participants for their
contributions, and talked about the distinctions between the
resolutions. He stated further testimony would be forthcoming
during the session. The committee plans to have additional work
sessions, including Anchorage on November 21-22, and other
locations.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourned the meeting at 7:40 p.m.
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